1) The case for "consolidation" was not credible . . . not transparent.
- "Pros" and "cons" for the project would be different for each community, but only the "pros" from the perspective of Oriskany and Whitesboro were presented. Proponents completely missed the fact that the Town residents would be exposing themselves to potential liabilities they now avoid by being mere "customers" of village services.
- If you disagreed with the "pros," you were called a "liar" and had your motivations questioned rather than being civilly asked why your perspective was different.
- The makeup of the Board of Commissioners (Town vs Villages) had yet to be decided -- i.e., the plans were still a work in progress.
- Proposed tax rates and budgets were presented with no supporting documentation/explanation that public members could use to verify what they had been told.
- Since the public was not told of any specific equipment or personnel cuts, the financial benefits of "consolidation" were not evident.
- Since most service within the FD would be done by 2 rather than 4 units of firefighters, the "safety" benefit was not evident.
2) "Consolidation" from the perspective of a fire department was not a "consolidation" from the perspective of the taxpayer, who would be faced with paying an additional unit of government.
3) A board of appointed commissioners is not as accountable to the public as a board of elected commissioners.
The public is open to the idea of consolidation . . . but it must be real, transparent, and accountable.
12 comments:
The biggest issue in my mind (a supporter of consolidation) is that people - including yourself - still do not know enough about how Fire Departments actually work to understand the real issues driving both sides. I could easily drag both sides through the mud to prove my point but I won't - what I will point out is this though: Everyone was freaking out about the board make up not being accountable, however I guarantee that the next Fire Commissioner Election will turn out as usual - with only 20 people voting. Most of them being the Fire Department Members themselves. How is that accountability?
People need to pay more attention to how Fire Departments actually work in this county, only then will everyone see NY Mills FD for what it is.... An anchor holding Fire/EMS back from advancing into the 21st Century.
Anon11:04
Your comment reflects the problem with the way the proponents of consolidation presented it to the public, i.e. a lot of puffing but no real substance on which to make an informed decision.
How do FDs actually work in this county? How is NYMFD an anchor holding Fire/EMS back from advancing into the 21st Century?
Can the villages legally transfer their assets to another entity without compensation? What are the village taxpayers receiving for this?
How does the loss of two FD volunteers, equipment and such equate to enhanced safety and services to the Town?
This is just another example of "we need to pass it to see how it's going to work". Hogwash. People want to know how this affects their protection and taxes backed-up by the plan and numbers, complete with the methodology that was used to determine them. They want to hear the criticisms from both sides without the childish name calling.
This vote showed that people will come out to vote if they feel strongly on an issue. So if the voters were not happy with the commissioners they wouldn't have this chance. The authors of this proposal should stick to its original intention of Whitesboro and Oriskany merging, instead they went big and tried to sneak this plan in since the have a lot of fire department members or family sitting on the board. I would like to know when the plan was brought to the towns people. I was made aware of this only during the combined town/village board meetings. And the plan was set and it seemed all board members minds were made up already.
Thank you for your comment, Anonymous 1104, even though I disagree with you.
You can dismiss the NO vote as the product of people, such as myself, not knowing "enough about how Fire Departments actually work to understand the real issues driving both sides," OR
You can admit that you did a poor job educating the public by failing to "drag both sides through the mud to prove" your point, OR
You can admit that perhaps your plan failed to address those things that most concern people.
Re-read the last statement of my post because that is my nutshell take on the issue -- this FD proposal in particular and "consolidation" proposals in general.
In so far as the complaint about NY Mills, in the interest of full disclosure I live in that district. It colors how I perceive things. While I am sure my community has problem areas like any other, from what I can tell things here seem well-run. And if what Whitesboro Mayor O'Connor said about NYM receiving fire revenue from contracts in excess of operating expenses is true, it confirms how good I feel about this village!
My posts reflected the assumption that Whitesboro and Oriskany were also well run -- but the votes from those villages tells me my assumption was wrong.
NYM's success isn't holding anyone else back. Perhaps NYM is the best model for Fire/EMS in the 21st Century!
Shoot, Anons 1214 and 1226, I should have just let you folks make my points for me! :-)
Your comment reflects the problem with the way the proponents of consolidation presented it to the public, i.e. a lot of puffing but no real substance on which to make an informed decision.
The vote is over and my attempt is to not rehash the arguments – especially because for those that wanted to listen all the information from cost savings, decreased response times, and removal of duplicate services was very well laid out. I did however figure it’s a good time to point out that everyone needs to start paying more attention to the way Fire Departments actually work or well don't work. This is something that no one ever seems to do, hence low Commissioner Voter turnout across the entire county.
How do FDs actually work in this county?
If I had more time/energy I would explain it all but unless you are actually in one you don’t even know what you don’t know. For purposes here Fire Departments are no longer their own little Island. The moment there is a Fire half the county gets called out because 1) there is not enough man power and 2) due to cost and space departments cannot have every piece of equipment needed. This is why if there is a fire across the street from the New York Mills Fire House, NYMFD will immediately call for Whitesboro, Oriskany, Clark Mills, New Hartford, and Yorkville. NYMFD, just like everyone else, doesn't have enough man power. Additionally to reduce costs equipment is purchased together (more you buy the less each individual item costs), departments regularly train together, and in general work well with one another. In fact your house insurance is based on not just your Fire Department, but those around you because of this!
Most calls Fire Departments receive are EMS related - the days of needing large Departments for Large fires is over.
As shown time and time again there is a larger amount of equipment in these villages than in the city of Utica and Rome (probably combined). Going back to my argument that people need to pay more attention to how Fire Departments actually work in this county, tax payers have paid for equipment time and time again that if Departments would consolidate and work together would not be needed. But why should NYMFD tax payers pay for a new Ladder Truck (which they want to buy) when they are surrounded by them (Oriskany, Whitesboro, Yorkville, Utica, and New Hartford) and at a fire there would not be enough NYMFD Members to both work the latter and put water on the flames. Again Fire Departments are no longer their own Island, yet from responding to calls, conducting training, and purchasing equipment many (especially NYMFD) continue to push that old mentality.
How is NYMFD an anchor holding Fire/EMS back from advancing into the 21st Century?
New York Mills has constantly held up discussions on consolidation, adjusting territory, and quite frankly does not work well with other departments. It’s an example of cronyism and inefficiency at its worst. But NYM features prominently in my example because of what they did with the vote, but there are many instances of these things (and single families dominating Fire Departments) throughout Upstate.
How does the loss of two FD volunteers, equipment and such equate to enhanced safety and services to the Town?
The buildings, volunteers, and trucks would still be there - how are they lost? However, there will no longer be duplication of services and equipment - again there is a larger amount of equipment in this area than in the city of Utica and Rome – why? Going forward I suspect that departments will begin purchasing equipment together consolidated or not. As far as safety and services go - there would have been decreased response times to outlying areas. Yes I know that's it, but the Departments in this area actually all pretty good at fighting the 2 actual fires they get a year.
Can the villages legally transfer their assets to another entity without compensation? What are the village taxpayers receiving for this?
Yes and they will - give it time.
The vote is over and my attempt is to not rehash the arguments – especially because for those that wanted to listen all the information from cost savings, decreased response times, and removal of duplicate services was very well laid out. I did however figure it’s a good time to point out that everyone needs to start paying more attention to the way Fire Departments actually work or well don't work. This is something that no one ever seems to do, hence low Commissioner Voter turnout across the entire county.
If I had more time/energy I would explain how Fire Departments work bll but unless you are actually in one you don’t even know what you don’t know. For purposes here Fire Departments are no longer their own little Island. The moment there is a Fire half the county gets called out because 1) there is not enough man power and 2) due to cost and space departments cannot have every piece of equipment needed. This is why if there is a fire across the street from the New York Mills Fire House, NYMFD will immediately call for Whitesboro, Oriskany, Clark Mills, New Hartford, and Yorkville. NYMFD, just like everyone else, doesn't have enough man power. Additionally to reduce costs equipment is purchased together (more you buy the less each individual item costs), departments regularly train together, and in general work well with one another. In fact your house insurance is based on not just your Fire Department, but those around you because of this!
Most calls Fire Departments receive are EMS related - the days of needing large Departments for Large fires is over.
As shown time and time again there is a larger amount of equipment in these villages than in the city of Utica and Rome (probably combined). Going back to my argument that people need to pay more attention to how Fire Departments actually work in this county, tax payers have paid for equipment time and time again that if Departments would consolidate and work together would not be needed. But why should NYMFD tax payers pay for a new Ladder Truck (which they want to buy) when they are surrounded by them (Oriskany, Whitesboro, Yorkville, Utica, and New Hartford) and at a fire there would not be enough NYMFD Members to both work the latter and put water on the flames. Again Fire Departments are no longer their own Island, yet from responding to calls, conducting training, and purchasing equipment many (especially NYMFD) continue to push that old mentality.
How is NYMFD an anchor holding Fire/EMS back from advancing into the 21st Century?
New York Mills has constantly held up discussions on consolidation, adjusting territory, and quite frankly does not work well with other departments. It’s an example of cronyism and inefficiency at its worst. But NYM features prominently in my example because of what they did with the vote, but there are many instances of these things (and single families dominating Fire Departments) throughout Upstate.
How does the loss of two FD volunteers, equipment and such equate to enhanced safety and services to the Town?
The buildings, volunteers, and trucks would still be there - how are they lost? However, there will no longer be duplication of services and equipment - again there is a larger amount of equipment in this area than in the city of Utica and Rome – why? Going forward I suspect that departments will begin purchasing equipment together consolidated or not. As far as safety and services go - there would have been decreased response times to outlying areas. Yes I know that's it, but the Departments in this area actually all pretty good at fighting the 2 actual fires they get a year.
Sorry I had some issues posting this.
How much money is NYM also making off the town of new Hartford? If you take away the town money coming into NYM from new Hartford and whitestown you may be surprised exactly what NYM FD has left to operate on. They wouldn't need half the equipment in that station. This is a big part of what this was all about. You can be rest assured new Hartford town politicians were watching this closely.
Thank you Anonymous for your 754 and 759 posts. Since they are a bit different, both are posted. Your obvious time spent in recording your thoughts is appreciated.
I am having a problem wrapping my head around the statement "The buildings, volunteers, and trucks would still be there . . . However, there will no longer be duplication of services and equipment".
If there is a duplication of equipment now, and the equipment will still be there post consolidation, then why won't the duplication remain? There is a logical contradiction there that makes people uncomfortable.
If consolidation is going to result in elimination of duplication, then, obviously, some equipment has to go. The proponents failed to identify what that would be, fueling speculation that a station would be closed. Why not tell the public exactly what is going to be eliminated (and where) and let the public decide if they like the plan or not? Taxpayers are reluctant to give that kind of authority away to unelected elites on a commission.
The Town draws the boundaries of the areas needing fire contracts, correct? If Whitesboro and Oriskany FDs can handle the entire Town more efficiently, why hasn't the Town simply redrawn those lines? I suspect it has not because the Town knows that coverage would be inadequate.
The statement that NYM wanting to buy a ladder truck while being surrounded by them is a good example of potentially unneeded duplication. I would expect that my elected trustees on the Village Board would reject duplications as unnecessary expenses. If they do not, then they become answerable to me at election time. That won't happen with an appointed commission.
Instead of creating more government by budding off one municipal service into a separate entity, why are we not talking about REAL consolidation: elimination of one or more of the jurisdictions involved?
Why not discuss merger of NYM, Yorkville and Whitesboro (not the FDs, but village governments themselves)? They are contiguous with each other, their population densities are similar, neighborhood styles and land uses are similar -- all meaning that the taxpayers of each village would have similar interests. If you did not see the street signs, you would be hard pressed to know when leaving one and entering another. Why not combine "like" with "likes"?
Personally I would be comfortable with merging NYM and Yorkville since both seem to be well run. But I would be uncomfortable including Whitesboro since they do not seem to have their fiscal house in order. . . which gets me back to the FD proposal.
I suspect that the Whitesboro FD knows that its village is tapped out, is jealous of the money the Town pays to NYM, and concocted the "consolidation" scheme to redirect that money to itself, knowing that NYM will still be there to ensure the safety of the town.
Am I wrong?
To Anonymous 923, in my opinion NYM is providing a valuable service to the Town of New Hartford, and has equipped itself to provide that service. If New Hartford does not think that NYM is charging NH fairly, then NH can certainly make other arrangements and NYM likely will reduce its equipment -- possibly rendering itself unavailable to serve NH as a "backup."
Again, I sense jealously over money being paid to NYM, and ignorance of the fact that NYM taxpayers are exposed to substantial risks by having their village operate a FD. What happens if a NYM volunteer gets killed fighting a fire in NH? The liability falls on Village taxpayers, not taxpayers of the Town. Village taxpayers are entitled to be paid for the risks being assumed.
To Anon 9:23
Town of New Hartford has 5 fire protection districts serviced by NHFD, Willovale Fire District and NYMFD. The tax rate per thousand is as follows:
Fire Protection Districts 1&2 (NHFD).7228
Fire Protection District 3 (also NHFD) .7450
Fire Protection District 4 (Willovale Fire District) 2.6117
Fire Protection District 5 (NYMFD) .8504
(source-Town of New Hartford 2015 Budget)
You suggest the Town of New Hartford should take away the money they give to NYMFD. Why? Is the tax rate per thousand excessive for the service they provide?
Anon 7:54 & 7:59
your comment: "New York Mills has constantly held up discussions on consolidation, adjusting territory, and quite frankly does not work well with other departments. It’s an example of cronyism and inefficiency at its worst. But NYM features prominently in my example because of what they did with the vote, but there are many instances of these things (and single families dominating Fire Departments) throughout Upstate."
How has NYM held up discussion on consolidation, adjusting territory, etc? Can it be that the other departments are looking to slash NYM's district in order to get the funds now allotted to NYM? And what would these departments do with the extra money? Buy more equipment?
"Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below
On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own
So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill
Asking for the buried treasure
Tons of gold for which they'd kill." "One Tin Soldier-Original Caste"
I agree with Strike--sounds like you're a bit jealous.
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